Evocation-experience

[Telarus, KSC]

At this stage in it's manefistation would it be more prudent to Invoke F?

This could explain alot. I may have acted with too much haste in assuming similarities between F as F has developed and S.V. If we think of F and S.V. as entitties, alive in some sense. S.V. behaves like a servitor and seems content with it. F wants to become a full-blown deity able to fight Chronos as Zeus did. So F may find evocation offensive. The "Fotamecus Empowerment Rite" 8wasps linked may work best now. Fenwick Rysen seems to think so, and he created the original servitor.

http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/rites/fotamec3.html

That kinda touched on my point. This entity (as presented) seemed contect in a servitor role early on, but had a definate drive to suprass that role, and become one of the Time Pantheons newest figures. My main concern regarded the "what if" of F already making that leap, but people continue to Evoke him like a viral servitor, running against the "Don't Evoke what you should Invoke" and vice-versa. What kind of loop-holes would an egregore find and take advantage of if a large population Evoked it repeatedly? This seems why, although very intruiged with F, I would want to avooid the master-servent routine, as that seems to flip on the people involved with only very subtle signs. If I do deal with F at this point (in time ^_^), I would prefer to do so as equals, and in that way increase the communication flow.

Another option might be to create a new time servitor based on multidimensional time. We might see significantly different results from F. For instance, F only compresses or expands time. Perhaps a new servitor could take us sideways and back or forward?

I really, really, really (NO REALLY) like this idea. I think that a good communicable model of 3d time based on Pete's stuff and some of the other insights we may stuble upon. Maybe I can work on that Flash Animation I started as the viral delivery mechanism?

And the Mome Raths outgrabe.

-Tel

[Issarlk]

This is funny, I connected to ask people their experience about Fotamecus.
I've tried the instruction for use in fotamec1.html, and there are hints of results (I suck at visualisation and don't know how to "send energy", garbage in garbage out I imagine).  But my problem with it is when to ask compression and when to ask expansion ?

In   http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/4052/fotamecu.htm  the author gives as an example to compress time when he is at work, and expand when at home. But that seem to clash with the typical use where you ask fotamecus to compress time while driving.  If expansion means that there seem to be more time (free time at home for the author), then shouldn't compression mean there seems to be less ? Then if you drive with compression, you have less time and shouldn"t reach destination earlier.

I see 2 things here : - perceived time.  - actual time.  If compression means I perceive time as passing faster (desirable at workplace), then it's useless when driving.   Shouldn't one ask F to _expand_ time while driving ; compress at work ; then expand again for trip back home and rest of the day ?

Any thoughts ?

--
Confused

[anosognosia]

In http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/4052/fotamecu.htm the author gives as an example to compress time when he is at work, and expand when at home. But that seem to clash with the typical use where you ask fotamecus to compress time while driving. If expansion means that there seem to be more time (free time at home for the author), then shouldn't compression mean there seems to be less ? Then if you drive with compression, you have less time and shouldn"t reach destination earlier.

I see 2 things here : - perceived time. - actual time. If compression means I perceive time as passing faster (desirable at workplace), then it's useless when driving. Shouldn't one ask F to _expand_ time while driving ; compress at work ; then expand again for trip back home and rest of the day ?

I've used F with some good results, but I also see the contradiction that you see in the description of F. In my opinion, Feynwick Rysen's understanding of his intent is what drives the internal logic of the servitor and not so much the logic that you or I might apply. So to Feynwick, compress seems to mean "make this activity end sonner than I expect" and expand seems to mean "make this activity last longer than I expect." This fits with his later statements that "time seems to be about the rate of change" or something similar. I'll try to find that link and quote him correctly.

So approaching F as if it simply alters reality in certain specific but somewhat arbitrary ways according to an artificial belief system seems to work. It makes things end quickly when you ask it to "compress" and is makes things end slowly when you ask it to "expand."  But compress and expand what? Nothing really fits in my understanding, so I think of them as otherwise meaningless keywords.

One note: I may have experienced evidence that  F should be invoked and not evoked or it may become offended.


Welcome. I look forward to hearing about any results you have.

[Telarus, KSC]

One note: I may have experienced evidence that  F should be invoked and not evoked or it may become offended.

Anosognosia,
Would yah care to reveal what happened?

(Ok, up front, I talk a good talk, and may have an intuitive grasp on thie Chaos Magick stuff {hail eris}, but my first serious exposure was Pete's class. I'm still playing around with sigils, and haven't launched many, as I want my GF to feel comfortable around this stuff. She was a practicing Wiccan before she got involved with her ex, who "found Jesus in jail" after they sent him there for domestic violence against her. She didn't get out until far after that event, so all her paraphinalia got destroyed. A$$h0l3! I thank goddess that I turned her onto RAW's stuff when we just hung out @ work, as it gave her the psychic momentum to leave the shmuck, and a while later we got together.)

Speaking of RAW has anyone thought of using characters from the Illuminatus! as models for servitors? I guess most of them have enough mythic threads to make the jump to Invokable entities, tho.

[flibbertigibbet]

I see 2 things here : - perceived time.  - actual time.  If compression means I perceive time as passing faster (desirable at workplace), then it's useless when driving.   Shouldn't one ask F to _expand_ time while driving ; compress at work ; then expand again for trip back home and rest of the day ?

Any thoughts ?

--
Confused

i agree with you here and feel that this only effects perceived time.  i find reports of driving a car in excess of 200 mph down a highway highly dubious.  perhaps people can alter spacetime like this, but i really want more than testimonials before i start giving it much credit.  i readily believe that you can alter time perception which might allow you to read more quickly, or things of that nature, but try altering time to allow you to run a mile in under 3 minutes.... good luck!   

[Issarlk]

i agree with you here and feel that this only effects perceived time.  i find reports of driving a car in excess of 200 mph down a highway highly dubious.  perhaps people can alter spacetime like this, but i really want more than testimonials before i start giving it much credit.  i readily believe that you can alter time perception which might allow you to read more quickly, or things of that nature, but try altering time to allow you to run a mile in under 3 minutes.... good luck!   

I don't think it's a problem, as long as nobody checks and says it's impossible. I could see a problem if you were carefully observed by outside persons ; but does the world know you cover a distance in impossibly short time if nobody but yourself meters it ?   Nobody notices (except you, but you expect things to happen like that) and so the coherence of the universe is preserved and so it can work (according to the theory I read that the universe wouldn't maintain causality but only coherence).

[anosognosia]

One note: I may have experienced evidence that F should be invoked and not evoked or it may become offended.

Anosognosia,
Would yah care to reveal what happened?

It seems as if evocations of F allowed me to get alot of writing done, but I had serious fatigue after, more than even the work suggested. This also happened with the initial evocation of S.V. but not since, so I may be confusing some issue caused by my own inexperiece with a result of evoking F. I also experienced some disturbances mentally and emotionally which I couldn't explain at the time, but might be interpreted as "picking up" displeasure from F. I tried an invocation (small informal, but with more formal banishing) and this worked well with no side-effects.

In two cases I asked F to "expand" time while I was working on edits under a deadline. I seemed to get a great deal done and experiences surprise to see how little time had passed. Even when I expected the result I experienced surprise. It seemed as if I couldn't "get to" midnight when I had planned to go to bed, no matter how much I worked. Once I finished, the clock read 11:50. (laptop clock synced wth NTP to the atomic clocks, don't tell F ). When I evoked, I was exhausted the next day, just dragging all day. When I invoked the same thing happened during the writing, but I didn't feel any ill effects the next day.

I also once evoked F to extend my time for sleep after working very late without F's help. I had only a few hours. I experienced insomnia and time seemed to stop as it does with sleeplesness sometimes. When I finally slept I seemed to dream for days, long, involved dreams. The next day I experienced massive fatigue. I can't separate the lack of sleep, late hours, caffeine from influence of F in this case, but when I work late I typically fall in bed and pass out. This experience seemed unusual.

[Issarlk]

Do you invoke F alone? Did you make up a ritual of your own?   Invoking F seems to be a very time consuming (that's ironic considering the desired goal) thing compared to evoking or using his sigil.

[Isis]

I also once evoked F to extend my time for sleep after working very late without F's help. I had only a few hours. I experienced insomnia and time seemed to stop as it does with sleeplesness sometimes. When I finally slept I seemed to dream for days, long, involved dreams. The next day I experienced massive fatigue. I can't separate the lack of sleep, late hours, caffeine from influence of F in this case, but when I work late I typically fall in bed and pass out. This experience seemed unusual.

Sounds to me like a simple TOO MUCH of everything.

[anosognosia]

Do you invoke F alone? Did you make up a ritual of your own?   Invoking F seems to be a very time consuming (that's ironic considering the desired goal) thing compared to evoking or using his sigil.

I had originally replied over here with the full ritual, then I tried to split the post and also post it to Invocation since that seemed appropriate, but I've apparently bungled the move or misunderstood the split option. So, for the simple ritual I used to invoke F, please see the post there.

[Issarlk]

I had originally replied over here with the full ritual, then I tried to split the post and also post it to Invocation since that seemed appropriate, but I've apparently bungled the move or misunderstood the split option. So, for the simple ritual I used to invoke F, please see the post there.

Thanks for posting it, I'll report any result I get with it.

[flibbertigibbet]

I don't think it's a problem, as long as nobody checks and says it's impossible. I could see a problem if you were carefully observed by outside persons ; but does the world know you cover a distance in impossibly short time if nobody but yourself meters it ?   Nobody notices (except you, but you expect things to happen like that) and so the coherence of the universe is preserved and so it can work (according to the theory I read that the universe wouldn't maintain causality but only coherence).

i don't mean to say possible vs impossible, i have no idea about that.  but if someone tells me that they can drive a car 500 miles in an hour with the help of magic, or fly around the room, or walk through walls, etc.  i remain sceptical until they provide some evidence beyond testimonial.  call me a sceptic.  i do the same thing when advertisers tell me that i can lose 20 pounds overnight or they can make my penis huge.  i find it irresponsible to accept wild assertions without evidence.   

you said you could see a problem if outsiders observed, but what i worry involves that most of these results might not hold up to careful self observation.  i would also consider any objective measuring tool (like a watch) as outside involvement.  and without a watch how can you conduct an experiment on time, other than measuring your subjective perception?  the moment we start abandoning careful observation for wishful thinking, we fall into the pit of faith-based results and little seperates us from religious zealots. 

[Corlian]

i don't mean to say possible vs impossible, i have no idea about that.  but if someone tells me that they can drive a car 500 miles in an hour with the help of magic, or fly around the room, or walk through walls, etc.  i remain sceptical until they provide some evidence beyond testimonial.  call me a sceptic.  i do the same thing when advertisers tell me that i can lose 20 pounds overnight or they can make my penis huge.  i find it irresponsible to accept wild assertions without evidence.   

you said you could see a problem if outsiders observed, but what i worry involves that most of these results might not hold up to careful self observation.  i would also consider any objective measuring tool (like a watch) as outside involvement.  and without a watch how can you conduct an experiment on time, other than measuring your subjective perception?  the moment we start abandoning careful observation for wishful thinking, we fall into the pit of faith-based results and little seperates us from religious zealots. 

On Pete's recommendation I'm reading Ssotbme.  For maybe three different threads so far in the new forum I've wanted to mention this book...I really very highly recommend it.

So far on my path I've gone out of my way to treat magic scientifically (alongside other approaches) and show that we can use it as science and defend it with science.

Ssotbme has a lot to say about this subject, and I'm in the process of reconsidering how I feel about this.  Dukes argues strongly not to try to treat magic like science (er...more complicated than that, but...yeah).  I expect to land not exactly in line with the book's position, but somewhere significantly different from where I started.

He also addresses magic vs. science vs. religion/religious method.

[flibbertigibbet]

i think i remember pete mentioning this as an area where he disagreed with dukes.

[Corlian]

i think i remember pete mentioning this as an area where he disagreed with dukes.

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't entirely agree either, but it definitely informs this conversation in I think an interesting way.

Dukes also writes about magical thought following scientific thought rather than preceeding it.  He says he moved toward magic when science wouldn't hold up to its own standards of inquiry.

He also writes about he thinks science limits us rather than helps us in solving problems, in that it limits our scope to a small set of variables and ignores the infinite other factors at play in a given situation.

I find Dukes' ideas useful when I reapply them to things we've been working on here in class, particularly in relation to conscious vs. subconscious processing and bandwidth, and how the subconscious encourages magic, and how the conscious vetos, and what rationalizations we need to convince ourselves to allow for magic.