The future of this forum

[jungian]

"The ideosphere...is the "place" where thoughts, theories and ideas is thought to be created, evaluated and evolved. The health of an ideosphere can be measured by its memetic diversity."  From Wikipedia.

This forum was an outgrowth of an online course, and was designed to be a place where "graduates" of that course could continue to converse and socialize.  There was no real planning behind the design of the forum (we copied the course structure), and eventually the spam became too much and the forum fell into disuse.

I've spent some time thinking about this place and the possible functions it could serve, but I wanted to hear your opinions before I did anything with it.  I've stripped the spammers from the forum and have implemented some protection against spam attacks so we could just continue what we were doing before, but I'm not sure that's the best use of this space.

Does the internet need another online forum to discuss magic(k)?  If so, what would you want to see accomplished/talked about?  If not, please post with the places where you're currently hanging out so I can check them out as well.  

Here's where I'm coming from: I don't really identify myself as a Chaos Magician any more.  I'd define my magical interests as "eclectic" instead, where I draw what seems to work from different paradigms.  Some might argue that this is the core of Chaos, and I wouldn't disagree, but building a forum devoted to 'Chaos' exclusively means we won't see the depth of discussion in the various "base" paradigms here that would really benefit the eclectic magician.  I'm thinking that this might be a more useful site if we had forums devoted to traditional practice so we could build up a meaningful pool of knowledge that we could then dip into when it was time to borrow.  If it were up to me I would try and build this forum into a solid pool of knowledge from all viable paradigms in the hope that some cross-pollination would occur, creating some interesting hybrids.

I believe this would be a benefit to all those who practice magic -- ceremonialists might greatly increase their effectiveness if they would bother to learn some root work for instance, and Wiccans might find something of value from other paths.

I'd like to hear your thoughts, though.  What would you like to see done with this site?

[operbo]

It's been a loooooong time... I think the internet could do with a few more places for discussions of metaphysical topics. The only other forum I have found worth a damn in this regard is Barbelith but it tends to be pretty cliquish at times.

I'm with you on not identifying as a chaos magician as well. I still am really into Lionel Snell/Ramsey Dukes' stuff but I've found other current chaos magic works to be not for me. I guess I'm from the Morrisonian school of chaos at this point (Pop Magic! style) but I've also rekindled my interests in Tibetan Tantric practices (specifically the kalachakra).

So, yeah... I'm up for some discussions and I think expanding beyond chaos magic is the way to go.

[myk]

Well, there really is in the here and now a vacuum of really good 'chaos magic' content. Likely a cyclical wave of wax and wane - but it's important to keep sites like this up and running.

What distinguishes Chaos Magic from eclectic magic is an existential flexibility allowing you to distinguish belief from truth. I agree that the basic premise of Chaos Magic,'there is no truth, everything is permitted' actually stands in the way of it being a very viral meme - the idea is very threatening to a very common condition of blending a belief with identity.

As I'm writing on the subject on my own website, I'm softening Chaos magic, turning from a 'though shalt withdraw from existing belief to be a paradigm pirate' and towards 'wherever you come from, whatever you believe or do not believe, magic can and will work for you as you are'.

Right now my site,( A new site I'll not share the url right now, please let me know i'm welcome to and I will), has a focus on chaos magic/eclectic magic as applied specifically to business success on and offline. It has been limited to my writing of articles and a blog, but this coming wednesday I'm adding a Drupal CMS to the site so that is may be a community site. A Drupal CMS includes a forum, but also, and for all users, personal profiles, personal blogs and a way to add informative forum and blog posts to a 'book' allowing a vistitor to very quickly find the information they want.

Now I have seen many such web2.0 sites, good ones, struggle to pay for bandwidth and closing down when unable to do so. My site has hosting promising me unlimited bandwidth and that's why I'm installing Drupal and going a web2.0 route.

A very good alternative is to use the ning.com service. They provide hosting and a very full functioning web2.0 interface. The only catch is that they post google adword advertising on your site and they are the beneficiaries. That said, the service is so good I really had to think hard for reasons to use Drupal instead. My reasons? Using Drupal I can learn Drupal and that's supports my webdesign business - any google advertising is mine, I have no limits bandwidth hosting I'm paying for anyway - and the 'book' feature makes my site a better resource for everyone (I believe it may allow people to download the site's sontents or get them printed on demand too - but I'm still looking into that.

If you guys would like a Drupal service, I may be convinced to donate my time setting up for you (It's not that hard).

Mike

[jungian]

Myk:

The best way to list your website is probably to set your profile so that it contains your web link.  If you'd like to configure a signature that contains it then that'll be fine as well.  (I think that link will work.)

Drupal is a nice system, but to be honest I think that Blogspot probably owns the free blog market right now, with Wordpress a close second.  If I were setting up a blog from scratch and wasn't going to host it myself I'd be inclined to go with one of them because due to the perception that there's a higher likelihood of the information you post staying up indefinitely with one of the "big boys" hosting it.  No offense -- you're welcome to link to your service, I just don't think there'll be a whole lot of demand.

Please keep the replies coming. 

[myk]

I have 2 websites, one my 'home' website with my comics and graphic art, already linked on my profile - the new one I'll see if I can link in the signature file. The new website does have commercial aspects, so I was wary.

Drupal is open source software for private or paid hosting (I do know one excellent free hosting service equipped with cpanel, but once bandwidth goes past a certain point you have to pay for upgrades).

Currently I use wordpress on my paid 'unlimited' server space, this allows me to take advantage of my own adwords advertising and to supplement the blog with other material (an article directory, a store and a mailing list sign up- and soon, a Drupal community section).

I mentioned Drupal as, if this site is using private paid hosting, it has much more user functionality than simple machines forum. My simple machines forum on my art and design website - I had to get rid of it entirely as it wasn't just spammed, but hacked to redirect to a site auto-distributing malware. In it's place is wordpress which has excellent anti-spam measures. Drupal is major league software used by many corporate sites, I'm expecting it's more hack and spam resistant than simple machines forum.

I'd been a member of a thriving community site using ning , and ning.com is very good, pretty much as good as a real Content Management System, but with the advantage/disadvantage of free hosting. It may not have the popularity of blogspot or wordpress in terms of free hosting web2.o - but I believe it will soon, it's very good indeed. I have no affiliation with http://ning.com, I'm just someone that's impressed from seeing it in action and considered it for my site.

[Happy]

Encouraging activity, feedback even when slightly controversial, and keeping the place free of spammers seem to be the basic beginning steps to spruce the place up a bit. 

[kaosxmage]

I was surprised to see a message about this forum in my email. I had honestly forgotten about it.

I don't exactly identify myself as a Chaos Magician anymore either. The core elements of Gnosis, and results oriented goals remain in my work and exploration. However, I grew weary of the reductionist jerk and squirt regurgitation that floods Chaos Magick. When I went back to studying Spare's work, and looking through Crowley's tomes again, I realized just how much the Chaos gurus really watered these down. I've gotten back to honest study of RAW's work since his death. I've also found myself drawn into Heathenism via the guys at Elhaz Ablaze (The Chaos Heathens). Beyond that, I've become a Hypnotist and explorer of just what consciousness is through experimentation, scientific research, and just plain fun.

Anyway, the forum can rise from the ashes. It would be nice to have genuine exploration into Magick shared again. I don't think it needs to be strictly Chaos Magicians.

--Kaos

[stokastikos]

Hi, Stokastikos, Pete Carroll here.

I was flattered that people wanted to continue with the sort of work that we had started on Maybelogic and I was pleased to try and participate in this Ideosphere for a while, however it rapidly became apparent that it wasn't going to achieve much without presenting some sort of organised activity that required feedback from participants. It also became apparent that its open door policy would lead to a lot of rubbish and spam getting posted.

Most of the free forums that I have looked at rapidly decend into slanging matches, and I do not participate in them.

All this persuaded me to set up Arcanorium College www.arcanoriumcollege.com where we make a point of levying a small fee, this has completely solved the problem of timewasters posting rubbish and spam. We also reserve the right to remove posts and to terminate peoples membership, and miraculously we have never had to do this, and only on about 2 occasions have we had to ask someone to reword something that they have posted.

We make a point of having 2 organised courses running at any time but there are also common rooms for general discussion. The courses attract more attention than the open discussions. I remain convinced that any adventure of this kind needs a fair bit of structure.

I hope that you may find these points helpful, good luck, Pete.   

[jungian]

That's a very valid point, actually.  Other forums on the 'net have shown a tendency to draw people who are less than desirable -- armchair experts who won't shut up, the occasional schizophrenic who is willing to admit to his problem, the dozens who won't, the Christian fundamentalists (or fundamentalist pagans), the Charmed (maybe Harry Potter soon?) followers and "white lighters," and so on.  All of these detract from the quality of discussion that can be had on a public forum.

But the disadvantage of going private is that you only have input from those who join the private forum.  I think it's fair to say that the sort of people who join Arcanorium all share the same outlook and mindset.  This can lead to some wonderful discussions with great depth as we've all seen.  But if "cross-pollination" is desirable -- if we are going to try to learn from those who have other approaches to magic, like those resurrecting the hermetic magic of the magical papyrus of Abaris, or those who are exploring the methods of Agrippa, people exploring the old grimoires, or even from African-American Hoodoo -- then the monoculture of a closed forum is counter-productive.

The idea of cross-pollination may be overrated, but I think it would be helpful.  Is it worth the hassles involved in maintaining a public forum?  Can a publicly accessible forum be run in such a way as to keep out those who don't contribute meaningfully?  I don't know.

Thanks for bringing it up. 

[8 Wasps]

On the debate between closed vs open magickal forums I think that
cross-pollination is important, but a coordination or at least some
attention heightener is necessary.

The Z-list was the most open, but faded slowly into silence
after Mark Defrates left.

Approving members into the forum may be a good way to fight spam
and to keep administrators in touch with the place, but I suppose that
in order to survive the long term this forum needs something unique
to stand apart from others, lest it be 'yet another'.

I spend little time on magickal forum, but I'm keeping
the account here to see how it's going. 

[myk]

Well, I must admit that some others may have concluded I'm an armchair expert that won't shut up. I'm at least self aware.

Generally if you charge money, there is an impression of value to be delivered and those participating are oriented around getting their money's worth. But it limits your value to those already enrolled enough to spend the money.

The free site serves to enroll anyone and has the potential to spread virally.

Some sites have both free and restricted forums, the free resources a sales pitch for the restricted resource that are paid for.

So figure out what you're about - and the decisions will take care of themselves.

The bottom line with any site is the value. With my chaos magic/ecommerce site I've tried to provide real value to the extent I'm able. I'm turning it into a magical diary, where I'll share magic and business projects, detail what I'm doing and sharing the results. If others follow my example - it will prove a very valuable resource indeed.