Beyond language barrier dots sigil

[Isis]

Trying to figuring out the sigils  I came to the conclusion that the technique tries to go beyond language barrier
already during creation. 
So I got an idea using numbers instead of letters. You know the system you use in numerology.
No way a number wiill leave a clue in my consciousness.
so I got a sigil with the number 2891 4753 51964665 .
Pretty cool actually,  a lottery ticket. 
I went a step further and reduced the numbers to dots, remembering that this was the oldest count.
From there I made row  with  a number of dots and I did let the arrangement of  them to be random as it came up.
Result it looked more at a constellation of stars then anything. ( with a bit imagination)

Hope that if anybody experiments with that idea, I get some feedback.

[Arthur Emerson]

You may have already observed this. Your system of dots sounds a lot like the geomantic system. Very interesting. While experimenting with more and more ingenious methods of silization, do you find that you are getting more and more positive results? Or do you think you are just changing the face on an  already solid system?

I'm also reminded of the idea that if you need to remember something that you can put a dot on your hand with a marker and you will remember that idea. This works as a sort of subconcious trigger and could be another justification, so to speak, for your dot system. I recently, in fact, experience this dot thing.  A friend had told me to bring him a Boston cd (I'm not even going to try to explain that- "more than a feeling when I hear that old song..."). Anyhow, I told him I would forgot, as I knew I would. He pulled a marker from his pocketer and dotted my hand. We were drunk at the time as well, so my ability to remember would have been decidedly worse. I saw the dot when I woke up and knew exactly what it was.

-ae

[Isis]

Thanks  for your comment, Arthur.
I have no clue what a geomantic system is. Can you explain, please?

I found your remark with the dot interesting.
Now why would that work?
What if I made 3 dots on my hand each meaning something different.
Would I still remember?

I cannot say what technique works better yet…
So far I just have done one with dots and it is one that kind of is important to me.
I also don’t feel I can make sigil after sigil… I have to feel a clear wish for it.
I have the feeling that if I bombard my subconscious with no import reason, all I will reach is the contrary of a good communication. 

In my opinion my madness has a method, but it very well can just happen that all I do : is changing face. But why did I do it in the first place?
I found that as long as I can recognize letters in a sigil , my mind kind of gets into figuring at least a word.
With other words it tries to read. And it specially tries to read , because it can't.
Obviously I don't have that reflex under control. I just didn't notice before.
Because it tries to read it tries to remember.
So my sigils disturbed me (without me noticing at first) in my gnosis. 
Reason I tried to figure out a way of information-encoding that would bypass the language system  of the brain and it’s reflexes  and reach the parts of the brain  without
that system interfering.

Again why?

Magical techniques all increase right brain avtivity and limbic activity.
I think one of the mainkeys to magical phenomena to occur  lies in
the state of the dreamer… think of real dreams here :   the ability of a  dreamer to accept a dream scene without critical judgement.
For this to happen the reflective system  in the brain gets inactivated.

With other words I think for magical phenomena to happen the brain has to get activated in 3 systems that belong to  outside the ordinairy waking state.
 

[Arthur Emerson]

I'm only vaguely familiar with geomancy. It's a system of drawing dots for divination, originally in the earth, hence "geomancy". The most recent version is drawing the dots on paper. Agrippa brought it to the attention of the western tradition. Crowley used it I do believe. The Golden Dawn taught it, I know that. There are 16 figures, and like most forms of divination they all correspond to elements, signs, and have their own meanings. Just google it, you'll find quite a wealth of information I'm sure. If I recall a fellow by the name of Franz Hartmann wrote a book on the subject. It pops up on ebay from time to time. While I've always wanted a copy, I've yet to make the investment.

I would imagine that the dot system of remembering something would break down after only a few dots. Why this is I'm not sure. I do recall when I was a kid putting multiple dots on my hand to remember certain things. I recall it failing miserably.

I like all of your reasons for the development of this dot system. Could you share with us your method of encoding? I would be interested in trying it.

-ae

[Isis]

Arthur:

“I would imagine that the dot system of remembering something would break down after only a few dots. Why this is, I'm not sure. I do recall when I was a kid putting multiple dots on my hand to remember certain things. I recall it failing miserably.”


Thank you. So that would sustain my idea that many dots make remembering impossible.
And actually my dot sigil is the first of which I cannot recall the verbal content at all.

Thanks also for your tips regarding the geomantic system.

You asked me for my method of encoding and I thought I made that clear already.
I obviously didn’t. Maybe you can help me with formulating so it can become translated to left brain understanding. So if I cannot make myself clear here, please ask questions.
You will help me a lot if you do.   

From what I have read in most sigilmaking description I kind of surfed the web for that, I came to the understanding that one thinks what brings a sigil into the subconscious  is charging the sigil in gnosis.
I don’t know if Pete’s ideas are conform to that, but what I have found most in various understanding of the process that most people divide sigilmaking in two parts.
Making it, feel free … and then charge it in gnosis, forget it. That will do the job.
 Considering that most people kind of feel happy with their sigilmaking that maybe all there (is) to it, but studying the technique of sigils it kind of seemed an incomplete understanding of the technique to me.

So here my idea  :
The whole making of sigils takes care of the encoding of the subconciousness and not just the part of a gnosis who tries to involve what I call the limbic brain. Limbic brain
( is) a bit old fashioned in neurology I know, but I still like to use that label.
 So each part in the sigil making comes equally important to me, because it is part of the encoding.

 Magical Link:
To have a successful encoding I think before one starts to make a sigil one has to consider one’s magical link with the information that one wants to encode.

You mentioned in a another thread that you kind of wondered about people who make sigils for all and everything. Well I wonder too.
It would mean that those people do have a magical link with everything.
Not very convincing to me.
How do I define a magical link? A good question too, to which each of us maybe has to give his/hers own answer. How do you know you have one?
To me the presence of a magical link appears as a direct knowing, intuition.
It comes as the extra bit more then just realizing one of the  primary emotions present in the desire or the situation from which it comes. But I feel primary emotions come as an important ingredient too. 
Primary emotions which one could regard as fear, anger, disgust, sadness and joy. With fear taking a bit of a special place as it gets different processed in the brain.
All other emotion could get regarded as secondary
At this moment as long as I have a secondary emotion and I cannot root it to a primary emotion I question if the information I want to encode will have enough desirepower
( wish to change) to get it encoded in the first place.
 Why?
Because if  intuition and primary emotion appears  the subconscious already got involved and therefore will be open to get encoded.

Naturally I also assume that the ability with establishing a magical link will enhance with time and working as magician ( more later) , but to begin with most of us might need to spent some serious attention on this part in my view. In any case I feel I have to.
In other words I consider the magical link the first door. If we have found one, we can go further.

Making of the sigil:

My suggestion of dotsigils that transforms letters to numbers and the numbers to dot
has a goal to avoid activity of the leftbrain. Mine seems even to get activated seeing a single letter, I tried to avoid the trigger, by avoiding letters in the sigil and still have
the letterinformation in it.
Meaning I try to make this part of the sigil technique to a mostly right brain activity
As this is known to be an activity in which subconscious processes gets involved.
I also will try to make sigils with the left hand ( for me the non-predominant hand)
as this too might invoke more right brain activity. And see where that will lead me.
Another thing that could avoid the language reflex as I call it,  might be abstraction
of the sigil until it no longer gets recognized by the language system.

So as it comes to encoding , I think that we already need to at least in an alpha –brainwave so not better, while actually producing the sigil.
I don’t belief in mechanics alone in this part.

Gnosis:
But there is more to this part then just increasing right brain activity and reaching beyond language.
Where did I get that idea from?

When I do a psychic reading on Spare I feel that what he saw in sigils was a high degree of abstraction. He didn’t see what was actually on the paper, but he kind of did have a layer through which he saw the symbol with an incredible psychic view. I see it as kind of lightening up , as if  he saw the sigil as total information at once. Crystalclear.
And in that perception there was no longer separation between the sigil and Spare.
His consciousness expanded. 
 With other words he saw it with an altered awareness and an altered awareness I cannot reach with a sigil yet.   

Now with what kind of awareness did he see it  and more how can I replicate it or at least get closer ?
 
Part one of the article Enlightement and the brain , which I have placed in the
the Paradigma Piracy Department seems to me to have at least a direction in which  I needed to look, as the article was written by a neurologist. “  A disconnection of activity in the parietal lobes, which takes care of the sense of space. “
“Neuroscience has shown that in deep meditaton or prayer, the OAA in the parietal lobe is temporarily blocked from neurological input.”

Now I don’t need enlightemenment, the permanent version of that state, I just need a temporarily sufficient block.
 In some ways I can relate to what the article refers. I had experiences that would fit into that state. Can I reproduce it at wish, for a great deal.  BUT  not   in the way I see  Spare did it, because that comes as mindblowing to me, so obviously I need more block.
But now that I think I know what I have to practice ……..

Next I have to learn to use that state , as I understand Spare to have used it. 
To me it is having and using that state that means experiencing gnosis in magic.
 Meaning it seems a state in which your subconscious actually melts with the information
directly simply by directing your attention in that state.
Compare it melting layers in photoshop if that says anything to you.
Now I still use the idea of  imprinting the sigil by staring at it , while trying to loose as much sense of space as I can. One day, I will get the lightening up.

What I say boils down to that I see Spare processing parallel gnosis and making the sigil,
while we do it one after another. We need to forget, while I see that in his state
looking at the sigil, no longer involves the languagesystem at all.
And until I can dublicate his state, I consciously now try to use sigilfaces that make it impossible to distinguish. 
So I assume what we have got as sigil making technique is a taste of the real thing.
I can be wrong.

The rest of what gets considered as gnosis  in chaosmagic so far
looks to me more as arousal of the limbic circuit.
Which indeed is again closer to the subconscious then when you are in a reflective state
or ordinairy state.  So maybe that kind of gnosis comes as a good second best.
Paranormal phenomena occur more often around people in a frency.
 Staring at your sigil in such a state charging it even might kind of create a glimpse of the above without us noticing.
And specially using tantra .
But that kind of gnosis means an idea that one sends the sigil into the subconscious by the power of gnosis, speak intensity of arousal, charging the sigil.
Not anything like the melting information into it ,I have in  mind for my final version.

So no idea if I have answered your question.
I tried to be as specific as I could. If I didn’t , you have to question more specific. 

[Arthur Emerson]

Isis,

I just stopped by to let you know I have read what you have written. I intend to start some work in this area. Also I have to have a reply and some constructive questions for you in the near future.

The best,
-ae

[Vampigato]

Has it ever happened to you that you smell something and it immediately takes you back in memory? the dot in the hand works that way, only it's not a smell, it's a dot. By saying "Bring me a CD" and then painting a dot, you associate the dot with the cd, being drunk might have had an effect on succeptibility, but other than that it was simple conditioning.

Using several dots in your hand, each meant to remind you of something different, might work if each dot is emotionally charged enough. By this I mean, if you differentiate the way in which you make each dot in some way, and do it strongly enough to stick in your memory, for example, a pink dot in you hand for buying flowres, a blue one for getting some water, a green one for buying a salad, each one made when you realize there's a need for each of the items in question.... "I'm gonna see my girlfriend, I should take flowers" and there goes the pink dot. "humm there's no more food left in the house, I'll try to remember picking something up" and there goes the green one.

If you wanna use a dot-in-hand agenda the important thing it seems to be being able to associate and differentiate.

[HYPOCRTRITE]

In my personal experience the Alphabet of Desire can bring sufficient results, just forget the hypnotic implant an hey presto - it's a kind of Magick. Like amneseia and forgetting the neither-neither it will work out. You can write metaphor use metaphor in everyday conmversation etc. Indeed writing and art can have as much magickal probablity than invisible sigils destroyed. You gotta study the Lightside and the Darkside Patterningsm to just use them. Sigils can not just become monograsms they can become sacred servitors that grow up out of of ther calligraphic gestalt. Amnesia porrogramming in't it? 

[Isis]

You gotta study the Lightside and the Darkside Patterningsm to just use them.

Wise wizzard elaborate...

Sigils can not just become monograsms they can become sacred servitors that grow up out of of ther calligraphic gestalt.

Can relate to that.  The spirit of the sigil revealed. Or said with other words if we recognize the magical being of the sigil
then it has the power to heighten probability.
And thanks for reminding the Alphabet of Desire. 

[8 Wasps]

I reply with my usual late timing.

I found that as long as I can recognize letters in a sigil , my mind kind of gets into figuring at least a word.
With other words it tries to read. And it specially tries to read , because it can't.

Same for me. This thing goes away with the sleight of mind of preparing various sigils beforehand and
firing them later, but I'm still used to one sigil at time.
I think the system of encoding with numbers-->dots is a good way, but using automaitc drawing you may
have an extra bonus. You say:

Next I have to learn to use that state , as I understand Spare to have used it.
To me it is having and using that state that means experiencing gnosis in magic.
Meaning it seems a state in which your subconscious actually melts with the information
directly simply by directing your attention in that state.

Well, it seems you are just referring to Spare's automatic drawing. Through wich you ask directly
your subconscious to provide a suitable form for the desire.
I'm very very enthusiastic with the technique since beginning studying it.
At the end of a drawing session I've come out with elegant shapes, so beautiful I'm often
proud only of the art, and care less for the results.
Moreover, the practice unblocked my drawing faculties that I used no more since childhood and now sometimes
I enjoy using pastels to draw vision and impressions.
Since you have an affinity with arts it should even more suitable to you.
My main source so far has been "Visual Magick", but I hope to study directly from Spare's "Automatic Drawing" book.

Magical techniques all increase right brain avtivity and limbic activity.
I think one of the mainkeys to magical phenomena to occur  lies in
the state of the dreamer… think of real dreams here :   the ability of a
 dreamer to accept a dream scene without critical judgement.
For this to happen the reflective system  in the brain gets inactivated.

I agree, but I think advancing in the dreaming skill also means to
reverse the process, that is activating rationality while dreaming.

As for the method of remembering things through dots, well,
I use the mighty technique of writing entire sentences on my
hand. It never failed!     

[D.G.]

For a sigil turned into a number sequence, Sloane's online encyclopedia of integer sequences can find related sequences.  Most sigil-sequences probably won't match anything in their entirety but from blocks of the s-s that do match we can assemble a sequence of sequences corresponding to that sigil, then make our favorite graph out of it.  So Isis, doing this for the number you gave gives

or

or
.
or...

I chose the following related sequences to your number:
2,8,9,1,4 - decimal expansion of 86^th root of 86
7,5,3,5,1 - decimal expansion of (sqrt(2^pi))/7
9,6,4,6,6,5 - decimal expansion of 2^pi^phi  - where phi = (1+ sqrt(5))/2

[D.G.]

Connect the dots --- LA LA LA

[Isis]

3genus-3 4th void ..
Triple tilt. System crash. Bridge rebuild.

You might be on to something!
But it would need some research with numbers.
The theory I suggest:
Sigils with a sequence work bettter, then those who haven't one.
Like you said some dots connect, others don't. If you know what I mean.

By the way, the first partial sequence you picked up from that one has also been in a chaos sequence and a link to Pete's Banishing ritual at the side.   I really have no idea how I got that one anyhow. Can't be numbers from I wish, or I want or it is my wish. 
 

The one you used, did work. I just can't remember for what it was.
It is some time ago.
May be if one composes a sigil like you proposed, it might work better. I can see that.
I tried with another. I again got 3 partial sequences.
 
For futher study dear Genius of unknown origin you have to explain me two things:
How did you get the images? I couldn't find that.

Would like to see difference between different sigils, to see if this leads to anything.

[D.G.]

Sigils with a sequence work bettter, then those who haven't one.

Yes, since they may then have a rigorous connection to the modern foundations of mathematics.

that one has also been in a chaos sequence

That was a synchronicitous accident.

How did you get the images?

Microsoft Excel...and PeeWee Herman.

Would like to see difference between different sigils.

I would like to see this too.  Analysis of this inbetweenness is most likely past the scope of my current mathematical abilities.  If you have two in particular I may find their inbetweenness but as for numerical inbetweenness in general. . .

some dots connect, others don't.

My hope is built on nothing less.

[Isis]

Yes, since they may then have a rigorous connection to the modern foundations of mathematics.

If it comes to math, I go into category utterly stupid or even beyond. 
I just was once in what I call a mathematical realm, beyond the particle realm or so it seemed to me.
When I came back I understood all mathematicians and their fascination.
That realm is a muse.

Before I forget: My partner said I should mention
 Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, Douglas R. Hofstadter to you.
He has also written other books.

That was a synchronicitous accident.

If so I am accidentprone.
 

Microsoft Excel...and PeeWee Herman.

I can get Peewee Herman, Microsoft Excell will stay another pi mistery to me.

I would like to see this too.  Analysis of this inbetweenness is most likely past the scope of my current mathematical abilities.  If you have two in particular I may find their inbetweenness but as for numerical inbetweenness in general. . .

I am not a major sigil caster. So I have just my last:  9518 135519 356.
It still waits for an outcome.

But I will look up sequences for any sigil I make in the future.

The reason that I am not a major sigil caster is that certain thoughts often manifest
all by themselves, with a hilarious twist, if I may say so.

My hope is built on nothing less.

Your hope is my certainty that manifestation is inevitable.
Thanks for your wonderful gift of the mathematical sigil.