help with prana

[fellandrino potato]

gday all, nice to be here.

i wanted some advice on the four fold breath as outlined in the golden dawn (4 in 4hold 4out 4 hold). i am assuming that this is ythe same or very similar to simple pranayama.  so it says to make the inhalations full and on the exhalations, to empty the lungs. when i inhale fully my shoulders go up, and when i exhale, i have to suck my abdomen in.  these body movements just dont feel conducive to a still mind (as i  am used to it from meditation without breathing). is this the way to do it? am i whinging too early, should i just stick at it a bit longer? are those my feet?

i also relax my diaphragm on the holds so it sits "down".  in terms of focus points when beginning, any advice? just stick to the nostrils?
thanks to any and all advice. and by the way this site is kick ass, definately the best forum ive yet seen on the subject(s).
fp

[jamadara]

I use a complete breath as described by Ramacharaka. Here is the first Google result I got for 'yoga complete breath'. It appears adequate at a glance; please let me know if it helps you.

Re focus, it depends what I am meditating on; if just breathing, I allow my awareness to come and go with each breath. If emphasizing no-mind, I give special attention to the space between the exhale and inhale.

When you say you are used to meditation without breathing, what do you mean?

Welcome to the IdeoSphere!

Joshua

[fellandrino potato]

cheers thanks for that.it seems very similar to what i'm doing.
i just want to clarify, are you saying that is doesnt matter that there is a bit of body movement, shoulders are lifted etc etc?
re: meditation without breathing, i just meant asana without a specific breathing practice.

[jamadara]

"i just want to clarify, are you saying that is doesnt matter that there is a bit of body movement, shoulders are lifted etc etc?"

If we want to get critical about it, there is some movement no matter how shallowly we breath. I expect after some practice, you will find a breath that does not feel exaggerated. In any case, still body is just a means to still mind, yeah? Many ways to meditate, in stillness and motion.

[Isis]

In any case, still body is just a means to still mind, yeah?

?
Pranayama is not about getting a silent mind or stilling the body.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Meditation = coretechnique = stilling body and mind. 

Breathing technique is just half of pranayama, the other half is a mind that can give
the lead to pranaflow through the channels.
Though breathing can have the result of calming the nervous sytem,
pranyama is about manipulation of the spinal nerve
and flow of lifeforce:
 
Advanced Yoga Practices:

"During pranayama, when we consciously slow
down the breath and mentally take it along a particular pathway, we
influence the flow of prana in that pathway. It is a kind of
induction. It is like inducing an electrical current in a wire with a
magnet. So, using the breath in coordination with the mind, we are
able to engage in selective purification of a particular channel in
our nervous system "

"This channel is the tiny thread-like nerve that runs
up inside the spine and through the brain. It is called
the "sushumna." Purifying and opening this nerve is where pranayama
and additional advanced yoga practices will be focused. "

[fellandrino potato]

thanks to you both for your advice.  i had a small breakthrough today, so i'll just keep at it eh?

[jamadara]

Correct me if I am wrong.

Not wrong, just emphasizing a different aspect of it than I did. As I said, different ways of meditating, but they all involve a shift from ordinary consciousness (or, if you prefer, a return to ordinary consciousness) to what is often called the second attention. Correct me if *I* am wrong: I am used to pranayama in the context of Yoga, which in addition to circulating energy properly, is about stilling the idle chatter of monkey mind ("Yoga is the cessation of the turnings of the mind."--_YOGA: Discipline of Freedom_)--the four-fold trance loop appears to me an obvious indication of that. Since that is the part I personally have most trouble with, it is the part I tend to emphasize.

[Isis]

I was specifically told that pranayama is not meditation, but bodymanipulation.
In the context of kundaliniyoga.
Embedded in meditation and affecting/enhancing that in vice versa.
It made a lot of sense to me.

Well, thanks for responding.
We can now conclude that there are different approaches of pranayama around.
I didn't know that.
I stupidly assumed , that there was just pranayama. 

Fellandrino.
Congratulations with your breakthrough.


 





 

[Telarus, KSC]

Congrats as well. I use various number counts(4:4:4:4, 5:0:5:0, 3:2:3:2, etc) , also mental chants (Ssooo*in*:pause:Hhaan*out*:pause) to time breaths , as the need arises. Basic breathing techniques I've picked up include the Hara (stomach, absomen, center of gravity) Breath (try to move the shoulders and upper frame as little as possible, breathe by forcing the stomach out as the diaphragm goes down). With practice this can increase the elasticity of the diaphragm, also don't go too deep, should feel natural and relaxed, not forced. The Fear Breath comes when most of your breathing comes from expanding the ribs and raising the shoulders, usually rapidly and disjointedly. Watch anyone at a retail store whose slightly upset to see what I mean, very shallow breathing. This is the most common in our culture (and in the culture where asana developed), because eventually, the adult mind consciously (Abstractly) realizes how fragile this body is, and this obsession (remember our AO Spare, yes?) sets up a subconsious sigilization request for adreneline to keep us *ALERT* and *SAFE*. A structured form of this is called the Dragon Breath (learned this from RAW), where you do a 20 count of these, quick in and hout hisses through the mouth. As Carroll notes, this excitory technique leads to a reactive inhibitory state in the brain, i.e. you get an adrenal burst, then adrenal inhibition. Follow with relaxed hara breathing to clear out any remaining adreneline, and you get a very deep, very interesing mental state.

You may also combine the two to take deep and tall breaths (don't hold these too long, you're working up quite a pressure, and you don't want damage), but keep them slow.

When meditating for Octarine goals (mediation for meditative advancement), I usually have lost the count, but it's near (4:4:4:4), Hara breathing. As jamarda says, focusing on the holds should help develop nomind which will flow through the whole breath. Focusing on the ins and outs helps me attune to chakra channels, which I can push from red up to void(purple) and then crown(octarine) to bring on a no-mind state as well.

Wow, I didn't know I knew this much about Breathwork.

As an aside, Robert Jordan, the author of the Wheel of Time series, gives a walking meditation count of, gosh, 4:2:4:2 I think, but it might have been the 4:4:4:4, along with the Flame and Void visual/tactile technique as a way to "refuse to be affected by the elements", i.e. don't sweat too much when hot, and don't let the cold touch you. I used this when I had to check the mail late at night last winter. That was a long walk and it was *cold*, at least until I fell into my center, and the rhythm.

Namaste,
Telarus, KSC

[D.G.]

What you say, TKSC, with what I've learned about pressure gradients in the lungs, proves very helpful.  Thanks again - D.G.