daoism

[alk mem]

or taoism:

i don't want to mix my future bleatings on the tao with our current sufi thread...

but i think the whole taoist method could certainly have been discussed more at the MAL-Chaos site...the connections are there and so are great gorges and gaps...there's body-mind calibration, chaos myth and theory, sorcery...

taoism certainly begs--thru our own experience--some dovetailing into western paradigmatic models/maps of magick, self-development. there have been some interesting studies combining kabbalah (qabala) and taoist methods of circulating energy etc.

i do want to open up & jump into a quite speculative gap.

i have noticed alot of visual and conceptual connections between esoteric (and not so esoteric) art/design and archaic mexican cultures (the olmec, maya...).

for example, the use of jade. the olmec jaguar "babies" of the olmec (i believe) look very sino-based..! the galactic mayan hunab-ku design and the  taoist yin-yang are both swirling energies engulfing each other (i'd also say the dragon eating its tail--the ouroboros of medieval western alchemy--is another avenue to consider)...

even in the maya symbol, LAMAT

((a sort of "stargate" glyph:

http://www.timestar.org/star.htm
http://www.awakeningtribe.org/maya/glyphs/lamat.htm
http://www.risingstarlc.com/lamat.htm ))


i have recently seen on a Peking opera prop design...

i know this seems all so general and simply mentioned. but the nodal points appear to be out there to connect and recharge by.

i like to think that post-modern chaos sorcery "is" about this sort of speculative activity. not just mind-oriented (excuse the unintentional pun)...nut the whole body-mind-spirit nexus.



just wanted to slightly open the door here for any number of directions.


note that this also begs the crowely connection...he translated the tao and wandered the silk road...a true chaos gnostic like gurdjieff and the other grandchildren of beelzebub/metatron/kali/whoever

[anosognosia]

The China/Central America link may be due to a historical connection. Evidence exists to support a theory that buddhist monks traveled in the Americas (which they refered to as "Fusang") in 500 C.E. (1666 Y.O.L.D.)

http://www.vancouvermaritimemuseum.com/watery/reach_america.htm

[alk mem]

yeah, i actually think they were there...of course, that gets us into that antediluvian speculation (which i love)...

and if they got over "here" before we were able to record it (or leave traces) in a manner that allowed for verification, then it may have happened many times before...

you know, when the flying saucers were all over the planet helping the natives build pyramids (and pantheons) in egypt, mexico, etc.....

[Telarus, KSC]

Good stuff. The one textual memory taht jumped to the forefront when you mentioned the China/Central America connection was a bit from one of the MAge: the Ascension books, a Cabal in the Amazon made of INDIGENOUS Akasics and Mayan Dreamspeakers who had managed to rip the cities that housed all that Gold the conquistadors were looking for into the Umbra.

[Telarus, KSC]

The subject of the Law of 5s came up in the Sufi thread, and alk mem mentioned the 5 Taoist Elements, which reminded me of a correspondence chart I sketched out while reading a Taoist cookbook. One finds the 5 Taoist Elements usally represented thusly:

The Taoist usually present the 5 elements in a circular manner showing that each element has an intimate relationship with each of the other elements and together make up an integrated whole.

The outer circle (Pentagon) represents the Creative (Promotive, Generative, Yin) progresstion:
Wood promote Fire by feuling it, Fire regenerates Earth by returning mineral ash to the soil, Earth provides the raw material for Metal, Metal promotes the condensation of Water, and Water fuels the growth of Wood.

The inner Pentagram (star) represents the Destructive (Controlling, Yang) progression:
Wood controlls Earth, binding it. Earth controls Water, directing it. Water controls Fire, snuffing it. Fire controlls Metal, melting/tempering it. Metal controls wood, cutting it.

Each of these progressions may become reversed, with interesting effects that I leave up to the reader.

Now I noticed some interesting correspondences while reading said book on chinese cooking that noted the 5 Taosist Flavors. I then refered to my Principia in a fit of gnosis, and sketched these results.

Taoist Elements	Taotist Flavors	Discordian Elements
Wood	Sour	Orange (Citrus Fruits, normally the sense of Sight in D*E)
Fire	Bitter	Boom
Earth	Sweet	Sweet
Metal	Pungent	Pungent
Water	Salty	Prickle

The discordian elementsal correspondences seem to stir in a bit of confusion to the normal Taosit associations, as they should. You could probably shuffle them around to fit into each of the categories in Taoist correspondece, which probably explained my confusion when I tried to form these correspondences myself.
You can find a larger chart of Taoist associations here:
http://www.compassionatedragon.com/five_elements.html
(check the bottom of the page)

[octopus]

     Gurdjieff talked about the laws of 3s and 7s and I think The Illuminatus! Trilogy introduced the law of 5s (have I mistaken?).  Since I know that RAW has studied Gurdjieff's system, I wonder if we could not posit "laws" based on any number from 1-9.

[Telarus, KSC]

anoncastillo  wrote in [lj-community]haileris,

The Law of Fives
Note: This was posted to another Discordian themed list a little bit ago, sorry if you've already seen it.

Something interesting:
2 + 0 = 2
2 + 1 = 3
3 + 2 = 5
5 + 3 = 8 (2^3)
8 + 4 = 12
12 + 5 = 17 (noticing a pattern?)
17 + 6 = 23 (cool, huh?)
23 + 7 = 30 (2 * 3 * 5)
30 + 8 = 38 (2 * 3 * 5 + 2 ^ 3)
38 + 9 = 47 (prolly meaningless, notice that numbers seem to be more or less meaningful depending on which number you add to get them)
47 + 10 = 57 (also not meaningful in any way I can tell)
57 + 11 = 68 (one short of being meaningful)
68 + 12 = 80 (take the number you get when 3 is added, or 8, and multiply it by 2*5 - also note that 12 came up earlier in the series, and the first meaningful number in a while is the one from adding 12)
80 + 13 = 93
93 + 14 = 107
107 + 15 = 122
122 + 16 = 138
138 + 17 = 155 (3 digit number with 2 5s! and it's the 17th result)

I haven't explored further than this, but it's a pretty cool proof of the law of fives that's at least true in some sense, although obviously false and meaningless in others.
Now, some people will say this will work with any number, so let's see and pull out the law of 6s.
0 + 1 = 1
1 + 2 = 3 (and 2 * 3 = 6)
3 + 3 = 6 (2 3s get you a 6)
6 + 4 = 10
10 + 5 = 15 (the digits add up to 6 (note that 5 becomes oppressive in this list))
15 + 6 = 21 (two digit number with digits that add up to half of 6)
21 + 7 = 28 (8 - 2 = 6)
28 + 8 = 36 (8 still being somewhat significant for 2^3 as opposed to 2 * 3, and 36 being 6 * 6)
36 + 9 = 45 (4-5-6)
45 + 10 = 55 (damn those 5s!)
55 + 11 = 66 (which should be meaningless since 11 didn't show up earlier in the list)
66 + 12 = 78 (6-7-8)
78 + 13 = 91 (seems meaningless enough)
91 + 14 = 105 (the digits, added together, equal 6)
105 + 15 = 120 (a 3 digit number where the digits add up to half of 6, significant since this and 21 were results of adding earlier numbers on the list)
120 + 16 = 136 (first three results )
136 + 17 = 153 (seems meaningless too)

So, maybe the theory somewhere in the appendices of the Illuminatus! Trilogy that there'd be a law of 6s if humanity had been born with 6 fingers isn't so far off, although 5 is a bigger figure in 6's list than 6 is in 5's.

I didn't notice anything significant when I experimented a bit with 7 patters, so maybe it is just those two numbers.

Just a random posting from a fellow Discordian with too much time on his hands.
By the way, does it feel to anyone else like it ought to be chaos season right about now, instead of discord or confusion like the false-and-meaningless-in-some-sense calender in Principia says?

the comments mainly had to do with starting with "2+0" and mentioned A.C's observation that 0=2. Everyone knows why right?
(Oh! I could have some fun with some of the numbers up there! Houw about "38 + 9 = 47", the 10th (2*5) in the series...if you subtract 5 you get the Answer (Consult Saint. Douglas Adams).)

[flibbertigibbet]

     Gurdjieff talked about the laws of 3s and 7s and I think The Illuminatus! Trilogy introduced the law of 5s (have I mistaken?).  Since I know that RAW has studied Gurdjieff's system, I wonder if we could not posit "laws" based on any number from 1-9.

the law of 5's comes from the principia discordia which illuminatus draws on extensively.  to quote:


The Law of Fives states simply that: ALL THINGS HAPPEN IN FIVES, OR ARE DIVISIBLE BY OR ARE MULTIPLES OF FIVE, OR ARE SOMEHOW DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY APPROPRIATE TO 5.

The Law of Fives is never wrong.

In the Erisian Archives is an old memo from Omar to Mal-2: "I find the Law of Fives to be more and more manifest the harder I look."

the key comes in the last sentence.  the fun thing about numerology to me involves how it reminds us that numbers don't exist in nature, we make them up and they do what we tell them.  so the inventive numerologist can find numerical significance with anything.  just ask telarus!

[Telarus, KSC]

Numbers simply serve as one of our "base-line" abstract categorie-matrixies. You can apply the Law of 5s to just about any category-matrix (and you'll always find 5 there, too, if you look hard enough).

Hail Apophenia!
All hail Eris Discordia!

[alk mem]

what about increments of eleven?

i've always been fascinated by the 11...(sephirothic back door and wormhole called Da'ath...?)

22 = tarot (major arcana)
33 = hiram key/masonic degrees? (is this related to yeshua/jesus and his return from yogic travels and his self-appointed meeting with martyrhood???)

jump up to

88 = double infinity; number of keys on a piano (octaves are of course 8=based)
99 = sufislamick names of/for allah...

666 is interesting but is it an increment of 11?
777 of course is familiar as a number to some of us...


[modified note: can't help but think of that pixies song where the lyrics go something like
if man is 5 is man is 5 if man is 5 then
the devil is 6 ... 6 ... 6
and god is 7 ... etc etc     ]





still, back to the DAO....

as much as i think the I Ching is related, i think down-home, aboriginal daoism is fine with

yin-yang which = the-2-which-is-0ne...and that "oneness" is nothingness, pure void, ain soph...right?

0
00
000





the way produces one;
one produces two,
two produces three,
three produce all beings:
all beings bear yin and embrace yang
                       tao te ching #42 / thomas cleary translation

(i usually see translations saying something to the effect of "from the three manifest the 10,000 things....")



to make another left turn here in left field, i am still fascinated with oya and set, two storm gods or "forces" whose numbers are traditionally 9 and 3, respectively. something about the enumerated Triad...

[zenpunkist]

I think the Principia Discordia's description of the Law of 5s is an intentional joke.  The appendices of the Illuminatus Trilogy talk about Weishaupt's fascination with it.  But I really think the secret lies within the description of Drake's turn to the Discordian side.  He says something about them moving through the shadows undetected. 

I think Illumination is about awareness of possibilities.  The more possibilities you're aware of, the more light cracks through to guide you out of the cave.  The majority of people can fathom about 4 possible results of an action, thus 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 = 24 total futures that they can contribute towards.  The people who control a bigger picture than the masses can see, conceive of 5 possible results of an action.  This ends up being 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 = 120 total futures.  So because they can move through 96 more possibilities than the masses they govern, we're always in the dark of what's really going on. 
Check this out:

The universe is 13.7 billion years old with an uncertainty of ±1%.
The first stars ignited 200 million years after the Big Bang.
The CMB is from 380,000 years after the Big Bang.
The content of the universe is 4% atoms, 23% cold dark matter, and 73% dark energy.
The expansion rate (Hubble constant) value: H0 = 71 km/sec/Mpc with an uncertainty of 5%. 

I think the Cold Dark Matter - 23% are the possibilities that we're aware of minus the one that we're actualizing.  The dark energy is all the space that they move through that we can't see, Only the people who see the light are not bound to gravitational forces directing their decisions??? That's why our natural desire to defy gravity - it's our desire to defy being pushed and pulled along by others' wills.

The good news is, I think, that the universe operates along the Law of 8s, which puts its behavior beyond the visibility of the people in power.  What they call chaos, is actually just 8 x 7 x 6 x 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 = 40,320 possible futures that they can't even begin to imagine.  Thank Goddess!

The coincidences of recurring numbers only shows the different scopes and sequence the people are capable of picking up.

[monkey]

   
the key comes in the last sentence. the fun thing about numerology to me involves how it reminds us that numbers don't exist in nature, we make them up and they do what we tell them. so the inventive numerologist can find numerical significance with anything. just ask telarus!

Yes...and highly interesting and applicaple to all sorts of stuff.

what about increments of eleven?

i've always been fascinated by the 11...(sephirothic back door and wormhole called Da'ath...?)

I was born on the 11th so I like this, but many numerologists would resolve 11 into 2.

Numbers simply serve as one of our "base-line" abstract categorie-matrixies. You can apply the Law of 5s to just about any category-matrix (and you'll always find 5 there, too, if you look hard enough).

Hail Apophenia!
All hail Eris Discordia!

Yes.

The good news is, I think, that the universe operates along the Law of 8s

I agree.

I think the Principia Discordia's description of the Law of 5s is an intentional joke.

Agree.

But as to dark energy and dark matter- I had it in mind to start another thread ("Space expanding into what?"), where I had it in mind to point out how many accepted theories say more about the human psyche than the laws of the universe.  I instance the Freudian theory of The Fertile Crescent as an obvious example.  I think of black holes and dark matter and energy as other instances.  Black holes!  We don't know!

[alk mem]

what about increments of eleven?

i've always been fascinated by the 11...(sephirothic back door and wormhole called Da'ath...?)

I was born on the 11th so I like this, but many numerologists would resolve 11 into 2.

yeah, but if 10 is completion or 'the-universe-at-peak-cyclical-expression' then ELEVEN is "everything + one".....(and thus a doorway, a wormhole is born....?)

yeah, the problem (or challenge) is the infinite, variable interpretations one can unfold origamically...

in short, maybe certain "traditions" work best with certain numbers (that is, numbers as some sort of maypole/central axle/axis mundi/crossroads of groundless grounding....).

i think it is interesting that archaic goddess impulse always figures around the number 9. and by default, 3...

[monkey]

...right, the first poet owed hir existence to the 3 muses...

yeah, the problem (or challenge) is the infinite, variable interpretations one can unfold origamically...

in short, maybe certain "traditions" work best with certain numbers (that is, numbers as some sort of maypole/central axle/axis mundi/crossroads of groundless grounding....).

And so back to taoism:  "Absorb what is useful.  Disregard what is useless." -Bruce Lee
(an excellent principle to follow, but I think the trick is discovering what things are useful; or maybe nothing we can experience is useless?)

[monkey]

yeah, but if 10 is completion or 'the-universe-at-peak-cyclical-expression' then ELEVEN is "everything + one".....(and thus a doorway, a wormhole is born....?)

     I keep having thoughts about this 11 idea of yours, but I've neglected to post much about it because, well, they're hard to express.  So I hope this makes some sort of sense.
     The number 10 as shown in the Tree of Life represents the culmination of the cycle of numbers 1-9 as I feel confident that we all know.  A binary iteration of nothing/something.  Then the number 11 can be seen as one segment of the 1s and 0s where the 1s happen to fall side by side.  1 and 1 as 2 from 11 prefigures the number 12, which prefigures the number 13, etc.  Also 11 as 2 suggests the 0=2 formula as well as the -1/+1 given in LK, as well as the glyph for Pan (energy/duality) in The Book of Lies; so I think 11, like 0,  acts like a singularity consisting of self-reference.